Posted by: Yuki Choe | August 20, 2007

When the Real Love Ministry Is Confused: Understanding The Ex-Gay Ministry Part One (Basics)

This is a piece about the serious level of misinformation and lies (it is yet to be ascertained whether it is by purpose, or accident, or oversight) presented by the ex-gay ministries in South East Asia. The ministry closest to home would be examined, namely the Real Love Ministry or RLM (Edmund Smith), an ex-gay ministry (scientifically called ‘transformational ministry’) in Malaysia supported by NECF (The National Evangelical Christian Fellowship); it has certain affiliations to Choices Ministry in Singapore, which is tied to Exodus Asia Pacific, under the umbrella of Exodus International.

What would be uncovered here are undisclosed scientific evidence, stances on medical professionals, reality facts and hard truths in regards to homosexuality, which would not be mentioned in any of Real Love Ministry’s seminars, talks or articles. It is a ministry based not on science but on scripture, not on reality but on dogma, not on facts but on beliefs; this ministry is set to re-educate a new generation of untrained minds, not into the affirmation of the existence of homosexuality and transsexuals as a valid condition, but preaching the affirmation of intolerance on an existing orientation and identity that is based on prejudice and discrimination.

Most people that hold up Sodom against GLBT people do it to support their own hatred (self hatred or otherwise). You might as well bang your head into a wall 10000000 times as to try and explain Sodom to them. – Marti Abernathy (http://transadvocate.com/)

The Basics About Homosexuality and ‘Change’

[From: Just The Facts About Sexual Orientation And Youth by The American Psychological Association: (www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/facts.pdf)

“The reason for publishing this factsheet now is the recent upsurge in aggressive promotion of ‘reparative therapy’ and ‘transformational ministry’. ‘Reparative therapy’ refers to psychotherapy to eliminate individuals’ sexual desires for members of their own gender. ‘Transformational ministry’ refers to the use of religion to eliminate those desires. Since mid-1998, a number of organizations have invested significant resources in the promotion of reparative therapy and transformational ministry in the press, in conferences targeting educators, and in television and newspaper ads.

… more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a cure.”]

[From: Attempts To Change Sexual Orientation by Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D. (researcher and writer of Lesbian, Gay and HIV/AIDS issues)
(http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html)

Some psychoanalysts claim to have conducted empirical research demonstrating that their “therapies” are able to change gay people into heterosexuals. Their studies have multiple flaws, including a lack of safeguards against bias and a lack of control groups. Rather than having patients evaluated by an independent third party who is unaware of which patients received the “reparative therapy,” these studies are simply compilations of self-reports from psychoanalysts who are attempting to change their patients’ sexual orientation (and who are highly motivated to report “success”).]

Thus far, The Real Love Ministry had yet to compile any report of any success stories of changes in orientation. Even ‘testimonies’ are rare, and also vague because of the non-existence of a person. It is either just a name without a true identity, or just a note “the name and personal information of the writer of every ‘dear rlm’ email is always changed to protect the writer.”

Change Is Possible!… Or is it?

(… that sort of person will often need some assistance. but the best assistance would come from a professionally trained psychologist, not form a amateur who approaches the situation from a dogmatic position. a person who (now that we have a glimpse of the inside of rlm) is showing all the signs of cultish behaviour, and who would probably benefit from therapy himself. – Kenny Clarke (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/))

[In 1998, December 12, the American Psychiatric Association meeting.

“The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.”
“Many patients who have undergone ‘reparative therapy’ relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction.”

The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.”

“Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.”]

Coming up on part two, the establishment, and some of the musings by the Real Love Ministry in regards to Lesbians, Gays and Transgenders would be closely examined.


Responses

  1. Dear Yuki: let me ask you a personal question. You claim that it is harmful to try to change one´s sexual orientation. And yet you want to change your gender/sex. What is most dangerous to change one´s sexual orientation or one´s sex? I had 2 friends who changed their sex and became women. They both committed suicide. And what about the post-op transgendered. Those who regretted that they made a sexchange? These men can not get their penises back, whereas it seems some ex-gays lied about their change and become ex-ex-gays.

  2. Have you ever asked why your two friends committed suicide? Are they really transsexuals or they are transvestites? Are they really SECURE in their sexual identity?

    That is the reason why most transsexuals are required to undergo two years, maybe more to learn to manage their lifes in their new gender role. Only with valid doctor’s approval can they receive the surgery.

    Sadly, there are some that do not follow the guidelines set and ventured into transitions themselves, this happens frequently in Asia, where medical professionals in this field are lacking.

    That is why more information is needed to combat misinformation given by various dogmatic groups. Stigma and discrimination also would play a role in how transgenders settles in their respective new gender roles.

  3. Yes I am sure that they were transsexuals and especially the tragic death of one of them was very hard, since I had known him since Elementary School. He was 13 when he began talking about becoming a real woman. Both of them went through Psychiatric treatment for years in order to be allowed the sexchange.
    A girl I got to know wanted to become a man. She had her breasts removed surgically when she was 25 and also took hormones (illegally). She did however not go through with the sexchange. In many ways she acted like a lesbian. She had female lovers. Because she considered herself a man. A brief period she got me pretty confused when she had a relationship with a guy. I asked her if she was gay then?
    I apologize for my ignorance about transsexuals.

    I do however respect transsexuals even though I do not totally understand this issue. Many do however think it is totally unacceptable and that sexchange should not be allowed. I do however understand that people want to try changing their sexual identity/orientation. I have not seen any being harmed for trying to change their sexual orientation, but I saw how harmful sexchange was for the transsexuals I knew.

  4. “He was 13 when he began talking about becoming a real woman. Both of them went through Psychiatric treatment for years in order to be allowed the sexchange.
    A girl I got to know wanted to become a man.”

    I wished I could have known them instead of hearing it from you. But taking it that you know them, I do not think they are transsexuals. Like me, I do not BE a woman or WANT TO BE a woman. I already AM a woman, and I would remove the defect on my body that causes all the medical and mental imbalances in me.

    Maybe it is unfortunate that two of your friends commited suidice. My condolences to their friends and families. This is why it is important to let researches do their jobs properly and transsexuals having their transitions without anyone injecting prejudice and stigma into the mold.

    There is also important to know and understand the differences of what is biological and what is socially constructed. I know I am a girl but something is wrong by 6. Your friend by 13.

    Edmund Smith (RLM) was 14 when he ‘realised’ he was
    ‘gay’. But looking at the circumstances he was born straight, and was socially constructed into a ‘gay’.

    Peterson Toscano on the other hand, had always been gay. That is why ex-gay ministries work for Edmund, but would definitely not work for Peterson.

    Both have contrastingly different childhoods. Therefore I would disagree with you saying ‘some gays’ lied about their change and become ex-ex-gays; rather, they were blurred and lied to by these ministries that they could change, and being human, it was an easy why out for them. But it is much more easier to just be yourself.

    Ex-gays will survive as you said. Not all transsexuals will. That is why the person undergoing the transition need to understand that it is a lifetime process. Life after the SRS is just as life before the SRS. It is just for a girl to grow up with a birth defect to be on medical assistance for life. But if you were to be a confused crossdresser like some I know, trouble will be looming.

    Maybe this article will help clear the air a bit:

    http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

    For me, taking the surgery is not really that important. If it comes it is a bonus. Because it does not change the fact of who I am, a lady.

  5. There is an individual by the name of Vivian @ Yuki @ Anonymous @ etc who is going international via internet to destroy the name and ministry Ps Edmund & RLM (www.r-l-m.com). This individual is a transgender (a male who believes that he is meant to be a female) who was once helped by Ps Edmund but became vicious because Ps Edmund refused to condone to his pro-gay and pro-transgender believes. Vivian stalks the internet to see where Ps Edmund / RLM are mentioned. And like below – he will condemned Ps Edmund / RLM. Below is just one of the hundreds of schemes of Vivian. He is dangerous & definitely an instrument of the devil. What can you do?
    1. Pray for him
    2. Do not entertain him (many Christians are interacting with him – online)
    3. Pass this email to everyone you know.
    Real Love brings Real Life,
    Ps Amanda Smith (wife of Ps Edmund Smith)
    Continuation of girls camp 2007 — Homosexuality and the Ex-gay Lifestyle
    I wanted to separate the posts because I think my previous post is too long. So anyway…

    I also joined the workshop “The Heart of Worship” by Pastor Ng Wah Lok and “What do you do when no one is watching” by Pastor Edmund Smith. The heart of worship workshop was really interesting. Pastor Ng Wah Lok taught about how to plan songs for worship. Pastor Edmund Smith’s topic was a little bit shocking at 1st. It was Homosexuality and the Ex-Gay Lifestyle. I really didn’t expect it. And actually I didn’t choose it. I chose The heart of worship. But Pastor Ng can only come on the 1st day, and Pastor Edmund can only come on the 2nd and 3rd day, so both workshops were joined. And I’ve learnt a lot from Pastor Edmund Smith about gays and he has really changed my perspective of gays.

    If you’ve read my post entitled “What would YOU do?”, I had this thinking that gays are born like that. I had this perspective that gays cannot be changed. But through the workshop, I’ve learnt that there are people who were gay and now they’re not. For example, Pastor Edmund Smith himself was gay. He had 3 elder brothers. So when his mother was pregnant with him, his parents expected him to be a girl. But when he was born a boy, his parents rejected him, especially his father. He told us that his mother rejected him at 1st but then later accepted him. But for the 1st 5 years of his life, his mother treated him like a girl and later treated him like a boy. So he was very confused about his gender. He told us he hated being a guy. He wanted so badly to be a girl. And he lead a gay lifestyle for almost 11 years. He later stopped being gay because he said he suffered and was depressed during the 11 years he was leading the gay lifestyle. But of course he said it was not easy to change from being gay to straight. But he said soon after he left the gay lifestyle, he found Jesus. And his life changed from there. And oh yea, he’s married by the way. Blessed with 2 kids. =)

    He taught us a lot of terms and also shared with us the issues that could lead to a person being gay. First he taught us about 2 stances : the pro-gay and ex-gay stance.
    • Ex-gay stance = promotes ex-gay lifestyle and discourages gay lifestyle
    • Pro-gay stance = promotes and encourages gay lifestyle
    Then he taught us some terms :
    1. gay = (for male and female) others drawn to a person of the same sex in a way of romance and sex
    2. lesbian = specifically for female homosexuals
    3. Gay friendly = to be friendly to gays, but hold the ex-gay stance. Aka do not hurt or reject gays, but be friendly to them and at the same time do not encourage their gay lifestyle/do not encourage them being gay.
    4. anti gay/homophobic = afraid of gays/hate gays. opposite of gay friendly
    5. hermaphrodite = one who is born with both genitals.(not necessarily gay)(due to genetics)
    6. Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.
    7. Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation
    8. Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.
    9. Androgynous = one who appears in the middle. Eg, a person looks a little like a man but at a certain angle looks like a woman.(not due to genetics)
    10. homophyllic = one who loves others of the same sex but has nothing to do with sex or romance.
    11. Deep Platonic Relationship = relationship whereby a person loves another of the same sex deeply without involving sex or romance.
    12. pedophile = adult who is drawn to children in a way of sex/romance.
    13. metro sexual = a man who is in touch with his feminine side.(eg man who cook, do facial, do sewing, cry, etc) it is usually a term for men and it is perfectly normal.
    14. fetrosexual = same as metro sexual but this term is used for girls (eg, girls who are strong, who love to play football/rugby etc etc
    15. butch = a girl who wants to be a guy. they will bind their breasts, cut their hair short, act like a guy etc
    The issues that could most probably lead to homosexuality :
    • SELF ISSUE
    This issue is the rejection in the area of gender or appearance. Eg, a person who hates his/her own gender. In the area of appearance means that a person who hates the way he/she looks like. Eg, a person who feels that he/she is ugly or fat etc. Pastor Edmund was saying that don’t ever hate yourself. Thank God for making you a girl/guy. Never say that you wish were the opposite gender. It really woke me up because there were times where I hated being a girl (it was not serious/severe). But yea, his words made me thank God everyday that I am a girl. I am who He made me to be.

    And also Pastor Edmund said, don’t complain you’re ugly, but rather remember that you are beautiful in God’s eyes, and that’s all that matters. God made all of us beautiful, so don’t ever say or complain that you’re ugly. He also said don’t complain about being fat. But instead, exercise, eat well and rest well. (A big bang to my head for that. LOL)
    • VACUUM ISSUE
    This issue is basically about the absence of love of a parent/relative of the same gender. For example, Pastor Edmund did not have love from his father. His father was there physically but he didn’t love Pastor Edmund. So Pastor Edmund was looking and wanting love from a person of the same gender.

    Pastor Edmund said that many people always look for Mr/ Miss Right. And he was stressing that there is no such thing as Mr/ Miss Right, because no one is perfect. And he also said that no one completes us. He said for example, his wife does not complete him, but compliments him.

    During one of the night sessions (not connected to this workshop), Pastor Eric Lau came to speak and he quote a saying from Pascal : “In the hearts of every men and women there is a God shaped vacuum that can only be filled by God the creator through Jesus Christ”. This is so true.
    • BARRIER ISSUE
    This issue is where a person is unable to be romantically involved with another of the opposite sex because the person has been abused verbally or sexually. For example, a girl may have been molested or raped. She will look at men as monsters and she won’t be comfortable being romantically involved with a man. If this issue is not resolved (through counselling), she will stick to girls and this can lead to lesbianism.

    *phew* So yea, he was telling us that gays are not born. God doesn’t make gays. A person becomes gay mostly because he/she has not resolve either one, two, or all of these 3 issues. A person can also become gay because of influence from the world. He also taught about Deep Platonic Relationship. It is normal and possible, to love a person of the same sex deeply without involving romance/sexuality. So yea, don’t get confused between admiration/ deep platonic relationship and love for the same sex in terms of romance.

    He also taught us to be gay friendly but to stay strong to the ex-gay stance. We can be friendly to gays but it doesn’t mean that we encourage that person being a gay/ leading a gay lifestyle. He also taught us not to reject gays or to mock gays.

    Anyway, to learn more about Pastor Edmund’s work (it’s called the Real Love Ministry) , check out his website http://www.r-l-m.com
    You can also check out this website http://www.exodus.to

    I really found this workshop and the things Pastor Edmund taught very useful. I think now that gays and their lifestyle are beginning to be such a norm, these notes are very useful as awareness to the public. And also hope that a gay can be changed. Though it is not easy and it also depends on whether that person is willing or not. But yea, it is an interesting topic, and an important one too.

    Hope you’ll find this post useful. Do comment and give your opinions.
    Posted by JoJo at 15:04

    5 comments:
    Anonymous said…
    Was Edmund Smith gay?
    No, he was a heterosexual who has relationships with men for experimentation.

    What is homosexuality?
    Just Same Sex Attracted Individuals.

    What is the gay ‘lifestyLe’?
    Ask any real gay men, and they would tell you eat, go to the gym, study, sleep, watch movies, swim…

    Why the term progay then?
    It is used for people who wants to have rights to get married, employment, non-discrimination.

    Is Edmund lying?
    Yes, just google on definitions like transsexual and transgender, and you would find different meanings to it.

    Somethings wikipedia has to say:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

    What does 477000 medical and health professionals say about homosexuality and chanches for change?

    Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.

    http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/facts.pdf

    [In 1998, December 12, the American Psychiatric Association meeting.

    “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.”
    “Many patients who have undergone ‘reparative therapy’ relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction.”

    “The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.”

    “Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment, there may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual behaviors.”]

    But Edmund changed?

    Changes are either 1. Bisexual people reconciling to just be straight. 2. Heterosexuals who feel they do not really want to have sex with men. 3. Celibacy.

    Until now, there has been many ‘supposed’ changes, but non are peer previewed, and scientifically prove, that a shift from orientation from homo to hetero happened. It is as impossible as a shift from hetero to homo.

    The Bible is used to condemn many others before; slaves, women, african americans, but the truth is what is written is never understood fully.

    Even Christ himself said nothing in red about homosexuality.

    The writings of the apostle Paul that has verses that is against homosexuality, also has verses that is against women…

    example:

    1 corinthians 34-35

    34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    1 timothy 2 : 11 – 15

    11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    You are too young to know this, but understand this fact, the bible had been used for centuries to go against minorities. it is what drives the church, fear.

    Edmund Smith needs to go against gays to sell his CD’s, one after another, also his preachings, and also to be popular and ge. Very few of ht support from th church. His ‘sermons’ are sometimes not free. It is his career and we should respect it.

    But I am talking as a Christian, Jesus would not murk a prostitute, neither use the Bible to condemn people EXCEPT self righteous priests. What is the Christian thing to do here? Think, question.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

    Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual. God sees the minds and hearts of people. Therefore, do not talk about people behind them and assume; but when there is a chance to meet gays, talk to them. You would be surprised how different a gay person is than the one perpetuated by Edmund Smith.

    PS – I used to hate gays too, and find a lot of reasons to do so. I was wrong. They are just ordinary human beings like you and I. In fact, I am starting to find it is heterosexuals that are deceitful, fighting to control homosexuals, while not looking into the speck of their own eyes. I was one of them. And I know that I am wrong by misusing His Name to condemn people who have a place in His Kingdom. Hope you learn from this too.
    17 December 2007 18:18
    JoJo said…
    Dear anonymous,

    Thank you so much for giving your point of view. I do agree with some things you have said.

    However I do have to point out that Edmund Smith is not lying(that is a very strong word to say).

    I’ve checked wikipedia and it says that:
    “One common definition is that a transsexual is a person who believes that his or her body does not reflect his or her true ‘inner’ identification of physical sex or gender.
    Another common definition is that a transsexual is a person who has had or plans to have medical or surgical treatments that alter his or her body to better reflect what the individual believes is his or her true gender.”

    So Edmund Smith is not lying. He may not be totally right, but lying is definately not what he was doing.

    And I do agree with this “Homosexuality is normal, and change causes harm, that could be emotional or phychological.” But as you yourself said, “Lastly, is it fair to listen to only one person who claims to be gay to represent every gay in the world? Everyone is different. Everyone is an individual.”

    I am not saying that Pastor Edmund Smith represents every gay in the world. Everyone is different. And the most important thing about changing a person, whether gay or not, is willingness. You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.

    Maybe you’re right, that change in homosexuality causes harm, but not all gays feel that way. It is not easy leading a gay life (although many have already been opened-minded about them), and some may actually feel much better and more free coming out of the gay life. I don’t think you should judge Pastor Edmund and say that he has not changed. How do you know his heart? For all you know, maybe he really felt better/more free after being not gay. Then again, I might be wrong. But only God knows his heart and his true feelings. And we don’t have the right to judge him.

    Lastly, I agree that gays are normal human beings like you and me. I do not see gays as monsters or weirdos or anything like that. I don’t mind at all talking with a gay. That’s why Pastor Edmund taught us about being gay-friendly. To be friendly towards gays, not to mock them or reject them. I would also like to encourage other Christians to love them…like Jesus would.

    Thanks again anonymous for your comments. I really have learnt alot from it. And though I agree with what you said, that I might be too young to understand/know this, I am indeed very eager to learn new things everyday. It is the awesomeness of life.🙂

    Ps: to all, I really hope you will post your comments too. Do share your opinions though it might be against my post. I am eager to learn and to hear your voices. Thank you.
    19 December 2007 19:24
    Yuki said…
    Hi, my name is Yuki. I have known Edmund Smith for quite some time and have been observing the comments coming in here.

    I would like to highlight something here, especially when I am a pre-op transsexual female.

    Transgender= transfer of gender. one who has a Gender Identity Disorder. a female who wants to be a male and vice versa.

    (Transgender is just an umbrella term that emcompasses every human being that does not fit into a specific gender category. It is NOT G.I.D.)

    Transsexual = transgender who go for sex change operation

    (I am diagnosed as a person with Gender Identity Disorder, or known as Harry Benjamin Syndrome. It is caused by the chromosomnal being, the psychological being, the hormonal being or the biological being being variant from the birth sex. The only cure for that constitutes HRT or hormone reparative therapy then to SRS surgery. That puts me as a transsexual)

    (Unlike mentioned by Edmund, a transsexual may not go to surgery, example the Muslim transsexuals in Malaysia who cannot because of their religion. The surgery is just part of the journey, the transition is a lifetime. Therefore, Edmund Smith is incorrect to drag the term transgender and mashes it with transsexual)

    Transvestite = transfer of vest (clothes). a male who dresses like a female (or vice versa) mostly for fun/ performance.

    (A male who dresses as a male or vice versa is called drags and drabs. It has nothing to do with transsexuals, because they are sure with their sexuality.)

    I am sure Edmund is not lying, but there are political things you cannot see in his ‘motion’, even for ex-gays.

    I give you just one simple question, let’s just say you have a left hand. But suddenly someone comes and says it is caused by your parents who are distant or psysical brokeness. How do you feel? Now put that to gays, you have gays who come from normal families and childhoods, only to be accused of being abused or distant from their parents? Is Edmund being fair?

    Lastly, on your comment:

    “You can talk to a gay, tell him/her that change is better, so on so forth, but at the end of the day, it depends whether the person is willing to change him/herself.”

    That is the problem. How would you feel if someone comes to you and ask you to be a homosexual? And are you fair in stating here that the person ‘should’ change? No one should be compelled to be who they are not, or be assumed they are to change to something they are not.

    If I were to have listened to Edmund and try to be a boy… I would have lost a lot of years in my life in pursuing a transition, and missed a huge part of my years being who I am.

    But of course I cannot speak for gays for I am not, but you can check here – http://www.beyondexgay.com. These are ex gay survivors, who have wasted precious years and finances, only to realise they have wasted years (some to decades) of their life trying to be who they are not. And who have they to thank for? People who come and tried to change them like Edmund.

    And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?

    Are you doing justice then to your homosexual friends? The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.

    Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?

    I am sure Edmund can help very few people who were sexually confused like himself, but for the majority, he does nothing but throw wrong representations of what homosexuality really is.

    One last question. As you know I am a transsexual. You can say I am an ex-boy. Do you trust me if I tell you I can teach everyone about being a boy?

    Likewise, can you say ex-gays can tell you about being a gay? Ex-gays are never gays, or they are lying to themselves.

    I agree with the ‘annonymus’. You need to question, and think. The world is never simple, but I am sure everyone will get their share of wisdom someday. Even you me, and Edmund Smith.
    19 December 2007 22:21
    JoJo said…
    Dear Yuki,

    Thank you so much for your comments and I have to say, some things you have said have got me thinking.

    “Imagine, a girl, one day, someone may come and slap her in the face and said ‘you ruined my life You blurred my mind saying that I would be better of to change. Well, I was willing to. Now I wasted 20 years of my life. And what do I get? NOTHING! If is all because of you and those false promises by EDMUND SMITH!…

    Do you want to be that girl?”

    No, I would not want to be that girl. And I most probably would not. Because honestly, I don’t think I have enough knowledge or experience or maybe even courage to go up to any gay and ask them to change. This post I put up in my blog is just to share with people something I have learnt in camp. Not to change anyone. And of course I would like to have some feedback from others and to learn more, to think more, to question more.

    “And dear, Edmund IS lying. There is no change. Only supression, and a life of denial. But to Edmund, that is his right, to deny himself to take up his cross to follow HIM. But in another different corner, does denying yourself to take up the cross include ‘changing’ to become a homosexual (lesbian) for you? Do you understand now?”

    I still do have this believe that there IS change. That change is possible. However, I do agree with you that change may not be beneficial to others.
    But like I said, neither me nor you nor anyone else knows Pastor Edmund’s true heart. Only God and himself. Whether he is living a life of denial, we don’t know, and we definately cannot judge him.

    I have visited your blog and I have to say, I am very encouraged by you. About how strong your relationship with God is. And I do very much agree with you. That gays are normal human beings, and I will take your advice “The best thing to do for your homosexual friends treat them as human beings without compelling them to do something they will regret for the rest of your life.”

    Tell you the truth, I don’t have any homosexual friends. Or for all you know maybe I do but I don’t realise. But one thing is for sure, I will definately follow your advice in treating them as normal human beings. And I will love them…as Jesus would.

    Thank you once again, Yuki for sharing your comments, your opinions, and your knowledge. I have learnt alot. From both you and anonymous. And I will question and think about this topic. And I will most definately learn from views, opinions, and knowledge from other people. Thank you once again and God bless🙂
    20 December 2007 12:41
    Yuki said…
    You are wellcome. Perhaps you are right too, to say it is only for God to judge him. Only God can see the mind and the heart of everyone.

    And perhaps I am speaking in despair in seeing many homosexuals that goes to someone like Edmund and his myths, and instead of changing their homosexuality, they even lost their belief in God.

    I fortunately leart a lot about Edmund, from his family and relatives; but I am not going to say anything except it is his life and God has shown many of us his fruits. He has to face Him one day.

    My concern as I say, is a notion that homosexuals CAN and SHOULD change. Change to what by the way? It is not a choice. The Bible’s writers has no understanding of homosexuality, or women and slaves for that matter. What more human beings.

    We are all individuals, living in the age of the fall of sin. Heterosexuals sin too, and heterosexual acts are all over MTV, add with girls in skimpy bikinis all over the place with men. So what right has heterosexuals got to judge homosexuals?

    We are all sinners, we should stop claiming to represent God and define people as who we want them to be. Let God define themselves. Our Saviour bless you, He will show you everything in His time and give you wisdom. Take care.

    “I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [head] and here [heart], and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man (person), or not. – Quote from Kingdom Of Heaven.
    21 December 2007 15:13


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